Timestamped Overview

00:00 Retired CFO of Home Depot appointed UPS CEO during COVID-19, oversees critical operations and mass hiring.

06:52 Align team members, set clear metrics, communicate purpose.

13:16 Prioritize listening, acknowledge errors, demonstrate vulnerability, cultivate trust.

16:10 Log cabin origins to leading UPS as CEO.

22:13 Compelled to act for women worldwide, honored.

26:39 Ensure correct job placements; address mismatches promptly and professionally.

29:21 Blessed upbringing, faith-driven values, committed to serving.

33:14 Leadership rooted in values emphasizes inclusivity and decisive action over adopting explicit stances.

37:32 Downsizing necessitated restructuring; priority now is restoring customer trust.

41:57 Hold deep respect for mentors.

45:04 Prioritize balance, presence, and shared significant moments.

48:12 Carol’s leadership: success through gratitude, joy, and balance.

 

Full Transcript

Darren [00:00:01]:

Hi, everyone, and welcome to one of one, the podcast dedicated to exploring the unique role of being CEO. I’m your host, Darren Gold. This is our inaugural episode, and I couldn’t think of anyone better to help launch the show than Carol Tome, the CEO of UPS. In this conversation, we cover so much ground. We start with an inside peek into Carol’s incredible first few months as CEO in early 2020. Navigating the start of the COVID pandemic, Carol shares her lessons of change at scale, how she was able to evolve a hundred year plus company with over half a million employees. We discussed the importance of having a clear and inspiring purpose as a company, the value of genuine listening as a CEO, and the importance of knowing how to integrate paradox. We touch on Carol’s storied career, including almost 20 years as CFO at the Home Depot, her unbelievable track record of mentorship, and her incredible upbringing in rural Wyoming, the role that faith, the land, and her family played in shaping who she is today, and so much more. And we wrap with an incredible surprise. I really love this conversation, and I just know you will, too. Carol, it is so wonderful to see you, and I am so delighted to have this conversation with you. Thank you so much for being here.

 

Carol [00:01:24]:

Well, Darren, it’s my pleasure. It’s wonderful to reconnect.

 

Darren [00:01:27]:

It is. You and I have known each other personally and professionally, and I’ve been looking forward to this conversation as a way of both catching up, but also diving into what I think is going to be a terrific time together. And I wanted to start with just some facts about this incredible company that you’re leading, if I’ve gotten them right. Last year, UPS delivered 5.7 billion packages in over 200 countries and territories. You have over half a million upsers, which just sort of blows my mind. You’re ranked 45 on the Fortune 500. And what’s even more interesting, fascinating, where I’d like to start is you decided to take this job at the end of 2019 and formally started, I believe, in June of 2020. But you were sort of already at the company and on the board, and we all know what was going on in the world. A global pandemic that was unprecedented in nature and the sort of critical nature of this company to the world economy and to people’s lives. So I’d love you to bring me and listeners into that reality. What was it like taking on this role at that time?

 

Carol [00:02:34]:

Well, Darren, you know, I had actually retired when I was living on my farm in northwest Georgia, but I was given this amazing opportunity to come in and lead ups. I had been on the board for a number of years, so I knew the company as a board member and certainly thought what a great, great opportunity would be to join and lead this amazing company. I was named as the incoming CEO in March of 20. 21 week after the announcement, the world started to shut down because of Covid-19 and it was absolutely insanity here because we couldn’t shelter in place. We knew that we were essential workers and that we had to keep commerce moving around the world. So it was mad chaos. So we were trying to keep our people safe. So we were able to do that and found that once people started sheltering in place, well, the demand for e commerce grew. People needed products delivered to their home. And so we were like, okay, we’re all in. In the second quarter of 2020, after I actually assumed the CEO role, we hired 45,000 people just to handle the volume of packages that were flowing through our network. So it was really just an amazing time to be a upser. And I’m so proud of our team because they really, they really showed up well and lived our purpose, which is moving our world forward by delivering what matters.

 

Darren [00:03:58]:

Incredible. I can’t even imagine what it was like. Thank you for sharing that. Most CEO’s, when they take on a new role, have the luxury of going on a listening tour and onboarding. And I imagine yours was a little different. So did you have to accelerate things and what happened?

 

Carol [00:04:15]:

Yeah, no, that was my plan. You know, I was onboarding in March and I was going to travel the world and meet upsers and meet our customers and walk our facilities and, you know, that all flew out the window. It was really about how do we protect our people, how do we keep our people safe and how do we keep commerce moving around the world. But it also gave me an opportunity to actually listen. And so I did listen. I did it virtually. And I talked to a lot of upsers, I talked to a lot of customers, and I learned a whole lot of things that actually I didn’t know as a board member. One of my big aha’s was, hmm. As a board member, management tells you what they want you to hear. I not necessarily everything that was going on. And I learned some things. I learned actually, that while upsers were amazing, they could take any hill and do anything and any challenge that came their way. They weren’t very happy. They weren’t very happy about doing it. And so I’m like, well, what’s up with that? Our likelihood to recommend was only 51% when I joined. And I’m like, that means 49% of us wouldn’t recommend ups as a place to work. And started to peel back the layers of the onion to determine, well, what were the drivers of dissatisfaction? And we found out a few that were so easy to fix. One is that we didn’t really allow people to bring their real, genuine, authentic self to work. And by that, I mean we were very strict with our dress code. So if you were african american, you couldn’t have natural hair, and if you were male, you couldn’t have facial hair. And our tattoo policy was more restricted than the US army. So I’m like, you know what? We can let people bring their real, genuine, authentic self to work because we respect all people and we want to celebrate your authenticity. That didn’t cost us a dime, but it was a big change, a big change to signal to the rest of the team that while we honored the past, we were going to be different going forward. And then we looked at the other dissatisfiers and started to address those. Some were compensation. Some were really the lack of empowerment and encouragement for innovation. So we just started to change the way we operated. And I’m really pleased to say we’ve moved the needle in that regard. People are much happier today than they were.

 

Darren [00:06:27]:

This concept of moving the needle at a company at this scale, over half a million employees, you’re operating in almost every single country and territory in the world. How do you do that as a CEO? What are the levers for change in an organization at this scale? Because you not only had to adapt to the pandemic, but there were some things culturally and strategically that you’re probably still contending with.

 

Carol [00:06:49]:

Oh, indeed.

 

Darren [00:06:50]:

What are the lessons there that. That you could share?

 

Carol [00:06:52]:

Yeah. Well, the first lesson is to make sure that you have the right people on your team and make sure that you agree early on on how you’re gonna work together as a team. So when I actually became the CEO, I took my team off site to my farm. We met in my horse barn, and we talked about how we were gonna work together as a team, you know, the behaviors that we wanted to model and those behaviors that we didn’t. We agreed on the things about the company that would not change. And we landed on five. Those things included our values and our commitment to our brand relevancy. And so those. We agreed on those things that we would not change, which meant everything else was up for review. Everything else was up for review. Because what I found is that we had a number of initiatives underway, but there was no clear strategic direction. We had a strategic platform we called customer first, people led, innovation driven. But when I asked, well, how will we measure our success? There was no answer. So as a team, in that very first week, we declared how we would measure our success, and we put out success metrics. Customer first, we would measure by net promoter score and we wanted it to be 50% or higher. People led would be measured by likelihood to recommend, and we wanted it to be 80% or higher. And innovation driven would be measured by return on invested capital, and we wanted it to be the highest in the industry. And we’ve made great progress against those benchmarks, but it was really important to set those benchmarks and then communicate it broadly. So we met together as a team, but then we needed to communicate it. And during COVID of course, that was extraordinarily hard. So we did it virtually, and we did it through a number of different means, but mostly pretty informally. So I do something called a wildly important video, and it’s a video that I just do on my iPhone, and it’s whatever is wildly important to me and I talk about that, and then we send that out to the leaders around the world. Then we have virtual town halls where we invite people to participate in an interactive way. So it’s not just us talking, but it’s us listening. So we solicit questions and we respond to the questions, and anything goes. Anything goes. Nothing’s off. So I think that’s really helped people start to row in the same direction. Probably the most important thing we did, though, was land on our purpose. We knew what we did. You talked about the volume of packages we delivered to dimensionalize it. It’s 6% of the US GDP every day moving across our network, 2% of the world’s GDP every day moving across our network. We knew what we did, but we hadn’t declared our why. So we put together a team of upsers and said, okay, you’re charged with developing our why. And they did a masterful job of interviewing upsers and retirees and customers and communities, customers and suppliers, and iterated, and iterated, and iterated and landed on our why, which is moving our world forward by delivering what matters. And we love that because it’s not just about moving goods, it’s about doing good too. Because we would like to show up in the communities that we serve. We like to do good. We believe that’s really core to who we are. It’s our why. And that was a rallying cry for our workforce. You see, I have a very interesting workforce. Of the hundreds of thousands of people that work for us, the vast majority of them are employed by some sort of a collective bargaining agreement. We employ more teamsters than any company in the world. We have works councils around outside of the United States. And this is an interesting dynamic to have unionized and non unionized workers and try to have them all go in the same direction. But I think we’ve been pretty successful at doing that. You know, in the four. Now I’m going on my fifth year that I’ve been here. Our service levels have been at all time record highs. We outperform all of our competitors from a service perspective, and we’ve gone through some ups and downs, but our purpose is what keeps us centered and keeps us moving ahead.

 

Darren [00:11:03]:

So you’ve had a master class in leading a company over the last four years. What would you say is the biggest takeaway if you were imagining people that are thinking about taking on the CEO role or just leading in general? Was there a big insight that was the sort of key lesson you’re taking from these four years?

 

Carol [00:11:20]:

Well, what I have learned is that as CEO, you’re not the CEO of a company, you’re CEO of a community. And that’s a really important distinction because there are so many stakeholders that you need to listen to and think about as you’re, as you’re leading. And as CEO or any leader, we find ourselves at the intersection of every contradiction. And how you manage through those contradictions can be extraordinarily challenging but stimulating at the same time. So think about just one contradiction. Managing for the short term versus investing for the long term. Right and right at the center of that intersection. At the intersection of that contradiction. So, you know, I’ve learned to be comfortable getting uncomfortable because you have to. You have to be. And to lean not into your own intentions, but to actually ask a lot of questions, listen intently, and then when you call the play, make everybody, make sure that everybody’s running that play.

 

Darren [00:12:21]:

Yeah. We call this polarity thinking in the work that we do with CEO’s right. The nature of paradox, which is almost always in complex situations, and this is about as complex as it gets. You’re going to encounter these natural, healthy tensions, and some people see them as choices between the two, and others, I think, that are more effective and successful, see them as opposites or contradictions that need to be integrated. And that’s how you manage complexity. And you mentioned one of them short term and long term. The other one that I see CEO’s wrestling with a lot and would love for your perspective and how you’ve managed this is on the one hand, you want to be directive, you want to be decisive and lead decisively. On the other hand, you want to listen and you want to build consensus and you want to make sure people’s voices are heard and those can often be in conflict. I imagine you use both of those modalities, but how do you think about integrating those opposites in your leadership?

 

Carol [00:13:16]:

Yeah, well, I’ve really worked on the listening part. I remind myself there’s a reason why I have two ears and only one mouth. I need to listen more and speak less. So I really do try to listen and solicit input from everyone around the room when we’re in meetings. But at the end of the day, you know, the buck stops with me and I’m going to call it. So I’ll listen intently, but I’ll call it now. Every once in a while, I call the wrong thing. And when I do, I admit it. You know, I show vulnerability. And I admit it and say, look, I messed up here. I thought we should go this way. The call was wrong, and I’ll explain why, and then we’ll learn from that. Every opportunity is in learning opportunity, right. So we’ll learn from that and then we’ll move on. But I think showing vulnerability is really important in these roles because it garners trust. And if you don’t have trust, there’s no way you’ll succeed. People may follow you, but if they don’t trust you, at the end of the day, they’re not there for you. And when they, you know what hits the fan? You want them to be standing right there with you because it will hit. It does. Stuff happens, right? So you want your team right there with you.

 

Darren [00:14:22]:

Can we talk about one of those mistakes? If you had to pick one that was really instructive, that actually allowed you to be vulnerable, build trust. In retrospect, something you called wrong.

 

Carol [00:14:31]:

Well, our naming convention here for our positions within the company is like nothing you’ve ever seen. We have so many presidents. We have the US president, we have the domestic president, we have the international president. We have the supply chain president. I’m like, who’s on first? Who is the president? And we show up at our customers with people who have the same titles. So from a customer perspective, it’s like, well, who was the decision maker here in the room? So I’m like, let’s just simplify this. Let’s look at what the rest of the world does. You have a CEO, you have an executive vice president, you have a senior vice president. You know, sort of a hierarchy which is very clear to the outside world about sort of the pecking order and who’s the decision maker. I’m like, this is gonna be easy. This will be simple. I was met with so much pushback. There was revolt. There was an absolute revolt. But we were moving forward because I wanted to do it. But behind the scenes, everyone is like, well, okay, but can I keep my business card with another? I mean, it was just ridiculous. It was causing so much angst and so much work. I’m like, this is non value added work. I will live with the confusion, and we’ll make sure that our customers know who the decision maker is. When we go to a meeting, I.

 

Darren [00:15:46]:

Want to rewind the clock a little bit, because you had a pretty storied career before becoming the CEO of UPS, including a very long tenure as CFO at the Home Depot, which is another company of scale and dealing with complexity. Love to learn a little bit about your career journey, because every path to becoming CEO is a different one. Sort of the premise of this show. What was your path like?

 

Carol [00:16:10]:

Well, I was born and raised in a log cabin hospital in Jackson, Wyoming. So I never envisioned, as a young girl growing up in a small town in Wyoming, that I’d be a CEO of a Fortune 50 company. Never did I imagine that. But I did think that I would be a banker, because my dad was a community banker, and that’s what I thought I would do. And so I worked for my dad in the summers all through college, and it was my intent to go back and actually work for him and take over the bank whenever he was to retire. And in my last year of school, he called me up and said, you know, I’ve got some news for you, Carol. And I’m like, what’s the news? He said, well, after 27 years of marriage, I’m divorcing your mom. And I’m like, well, that’s horrible. And then he said, and I’m selling the bank. And now it was all about me. And I’m like, what? You’re selling the bank? You know, what about me? So I’m like, it was actually the best thing from a career perspective that ever happened, because I’m like, all right, I’ll be a banker. I just won’t be a banker there. So I started a career in commercial lending, which led to all kinds of interesting things, including the opportunity to join one of my clients who was in chapter eleven, this the Johns Manville Corporation, the largest manufacturer of asbestos, which causes cancer, mesothelioma. And they had filed chapter eleven because of all the lawsuits that had been filed against them because of this product that they manufactured. And they wanted me to help them consummate their plan of reorganization. So I did. And after that, we became very acquisitive, and we were acquiring companies around the world and decided to make a very large acquisition in Georgia and to fund that acquisition by taking one of their subsidiary companies public through an IPO. So I did the IPO, and that was super fun back in the early nineties. And that IPO then led me to Atlanta, Georgia, where I had never heard of the Home Depot. This was 1992, and I came from the west. There were no home depots where I came from, but in Georgia, it was the headquarters of a Home Depot. And so I learned about this company. I became a customer. I loved it so much. I became a shareholder. I just adore the Home Depot. And then in 1995, they called me and said, hey, we’re thinking about growing outside the United States. We don’t know anything about doing business outside the United States. We’d like to talk to you. What do you think? And I’m like, oh, I’m a customer. I’m a shareholder. All right. So I went over and talked to him. And after my first interview, I’m like, nope, not for me. I’ll be bored. This is not for me. Now, the company only had 400 stores at that time and only $14 billion of revenue. And I’m like, nah, not for me. And some of my friends said, are you sure you want to think about that before you tell them no? And I’m like, okay. So I went back and I met with one of the founders, Arthur Blank. And you may know Arthur. He owns the Atlanta Falcons and Atlanta united, a wonderful philanthropist. He said to me, carol, we don’t know how high is up for you. That’s for you to show us. But we’ll give you every opportunity to reach your highest potential. I’m like, wow, okay. So I joined that company as the first outsider hired in, and it was really an amazing experience. And I worked for every CEO that company had until I retired in 19. And including Frank Blake, whom, you know, one of my great mentors and friends. And as I was at that company for almost 25 years, I was given increasing roles of responsibility and became the CFO 2001. So I was a CFO for 1819 years. And during that journey, as I expanded my portfolio, I ran our business in China. I ran strategy. I ran our real estate construction. I just kept expanding my portfolio. I’m like, you know what? I think I could actually run a company. So it started to think that I could be CEO. Action start wasn’t ever a goal of mine, but I’m like, I think I could because my portfolio just kept getting larger. So, as it turned out, when Frank Blake was getting ready to retire, there were three of us that were being considered to be his replacement. I was one, and I was really delighted to be one of the three. I didn’t get it. And the person who they named was terrific. Wonderful. But I’m like, about me and Frank, he was really wonderful. He gave me a fabulous piece of advice. He’s like, you could be a CEO someplace else. He said, but think about it from an impact perspective. Where would you have the greatest impact? I’m like, hmm. Where would I have the greatest impact? I’m like, I think if I stay and work for Craig Munier, who was the named CEO, I think I could have impact with Craig because I have experience in areas that he doesn’t. I think I could have impact. So I stayed, and we had a wonderful time together. It was just. We just had so much fun, and we made such a difference in the world and just grew the business. It was a blast. And when it was time for me to retire, I’m like, all right, this is great, because I had prepared someone to backfill me as CFO, so I retired. And that then led to this amazing opportunity. Then when it came time for ups to go through succession planning, and they put together a Persona of the skills and attributes of the next CEO and determined that they needed to go outside for that person. They looked at me and said, we think you fit. And I’m like, you think I fit? I was not on my list of to do’s or my bucket list. I’m like, at the time, I was 62. I’m like, you don’t think I’m too old? They’re like, no, our retirement age is 75. We don’t think you’re too old. We think you fit. And I’m like, oh. And then I was like, well, why would I do that? I retired. I’m like, why would I do it? So I went through a list of why. And the first, I’m a values based person, and the company has got great values. I’m like, okay, we’re aligned from a values perspective. Check. The second is, I love to develop people. And I’m like, gosh, if I get into the company, I think I could develop the next CEO. So then when it’s time for me to leave, they don’t have to go to the outside. They can pick from within. So that would be fun. And I’ve had some real success. In fact, the person who’s running Home Depot today is someone I hired. He worked for me for most of his home Depot career, Ted Tucker. He’s doing a great job. So I’m like, all right. I think that would be fun. Check. Then I’m like, all right. The stock had been flat for about six years. And I’m like, I think if I get in there, I can turn some dials and we can create some value. And I’m like, that would be fun. Check. And we have. And then I’m like, well, what will my husband say? I am retired. So I went to Ramon. I’m like, what do you think? What do you think? We just celebrated our 40th anniversary on Sunday.

 

Darren [00:22:12]:

Congratulations.

 

Carol [00:22:13]:

Thank you. Super important to me. And I’m like, well, what do you think? And he’s like, would you please go back to work? You are driving me crazy. So I’m like, all right. But I still didn’t know. So one day I’m like, I don’t know. I’m working out one day with my trainer. And I said, sayina, I don’t know. I just don’t know if I should, if I should do this. And she looked at me, you know, just right in my face, as direct as trainers can be, and she said, carol, you have to do this. You must do this for the women of the world. And I’m like, oh, Jack. So, you know, it all lined up, and I was really, really fortunate and honored and privileged to be in this role.

 

Darren [00:22:54]:

You know, what’s really interesting about there’s so much that you just shared that’s interesting, but you have these moments in time where you’ve got somebody like a frank Blake or your trainer that says something that pierces right through you, right through that you’ll have remember for the rest of your life and really can shape the decisions you’ve made. It’s just such an interesting phenomenon to think back on those moments of time. Any others that occur for you that were like, wow. Like, that single prompt or message really, really landed for me.

 

Carol [00:23:22]:

Yeah. So. Oh, gosh. There was a time when I was working for one of the CEO’s at Home Depot. He said to me, I want you to anticipate every question before it’s asked and have every answer. So I did. And that actually was the wrong thing to do because I turned out to be, like, the smartest person in the room.

 

Darren [00:23:48]:

You got to know how to discern between what’s good advice and what might be the half truth.

 

Carol [00:23:55]:

Exactly. Like, you know, sit back in your chair. I used to always sit on the edge of my chair. Always on the edge of my chair. I was ready for anything that would come my way. And I had a director, she’s like, carol, look at you. Would you please sit back in your chair? And I’m like, oh, so you’re gonna give me permission to sit back in.

 

Darren [00:24:14]:

My chair, talk about opposites. Sit back, sit forward, sit in the middle would be a nice, not a bad place.

 

Carol [00:24:21]:

Seriously. It changed how I interacted with my peers. It changed how I interacted with my board. It changed me a lot to be given permission, even if I. I’m very prepared. I mean, I probably am the most prepared person when I go in a room. But people don’t know it. They don’t know it well.

 

Darren [00:24:41]:

The courage to be able to give you that kind of coaching, I know, is just an extraordinary gift that we can give other people, no matter whether we’re reporting to them, peers to them, they’re reporting to us. And I can’t overstate the impact of those kinds of moments in my life when somebody in my life had the courage to see me and give me what, you know, tell me something I really needed to hear and do it in a way that I could hear it clearly. So grateful.

 

Carol [00:25:05]:

So grateful.

 

Darren [00:25:05]:

I want to also touch on the part of you that likes to develop people, because I know you, I don’t know you fully, but if I guess that that is one of the hallmarks of your leadership, you know, one of your superpowers. Is that. Is that fair to say?

 

Carol [00:25:18]:

Absolutely. I have about 16 people who work for me who have been CFO’s of publicly traded companies.

 

Darren [00:25:23]:

At one point, that’s what I had heard and I wanted to like. That is an extraordinary statistic. 16 people that have worked with you have been public company CFO’s and CEO’s and CEO’s.

 

Carol [00:25:35]:

So I train people like a Ted decker, who’s the CEO of Home Depot, or Hal Lawton, who’s the CEO of tractor supply. Or I can go through the list, but my fingerprints are a lot on these people, if you will. Because to your point about feedback, it’s a gift. And I invested big time in giving these folks feedback. Opportunities and let them run. Let them run as hard and as fast as they can until they hit an invisible fence. And when they got zizzed, I was there for them, right. But I let them run and it was just, I’m just so, so proud of it, really. More than anything I’ve done is the thing I’m most proud of.

 

Darren [00:26:16]:

That’s really incredible. And I’m also interested in the times when it gets difficult, when you’ve done all you can and for whatever reason, the person isn’t at the stage of development to be in the role that they’re in. Some CEO’s take way too long. Very few move too fast. Where are you on that spectrum and what’s your philosophy around how to deal with that in the most skillful, productive way?

 

Carol [00:26:39]:

You know, I believe there’s a job for everybody on the planet, but sometimes people are in the wrong jobs. It could be a mismatch of skills. It could be the job has grown bigger than them. But when I see it, I deal with it and I deal with it quickly because if you don’t, what you end up doing is their work. And I’m way too busy to do that. And I coach people through this all the time. I’m like, you’re punching down two levels. You’re punching down two levels. You don’t have the right people on your team. You got to move them into a job where they can excel. Right? And you see that happen so often they’re in the wrong job. You get them in the right job and then wonderful things happen. And it may not be within your own company. And that’s okay, too. It’s absolutely okay. But it’s a disservice to them not to give them the feedback or move, but do it with grace. Do it with grace and candidly with money. I make it easy for people to leave grace.

 

Darren [00:27:38]:

And generosity is what I always say. Those two things allows one to move quickly. And how do you coach people? Because that is a phenomenon. I coach a lot of CEO’s on that very issue. I’m interested how you develop people to get really good at being decisive and doing it with a lot of grace, a lot of generosity.

 

Carol [00:27:56]:

So I’m real straight on how I am assessing their team and I know their team. So it’s not from 40,000ft. I spend time with people. I spend a lot of time with people and it’s. I really try to understand how they think, how they process, are they exhibiting our leadership model, which is head hard in hands no, I actually know their people. So when we’re in talent reviews, there’s no b’s in me because I know who they’re talking about. And that really helps because I can say, well, let’s just talk about this moment or that moment. I can give direct feedback as to things I’m observing then and talk them through what it means for them and their ability. If you surround yourself with people that are faster than you, smarter than you, better than you, they will lift you up and give you wings. Sometimes people think, oh, no. You know, I have a responsibility to care. I’m like, yes, you have a responsibility to be caring, to be kind, but not to care for them. That is nothing. Your responsibility.

 

Darren [00:28:49]:

We talked about your childhood. I want to go back there because we zipped through it. It was sort of storybook in nature and just this improbable story of somebody that’s ended up where you are not improbable once you get to know you. But if you think all the way back there, I’m always curious, and I think really important as I understand people and help leaders to understand their formative years. And I’m curious to understand your formative years. How did those shape you? Was there a dominant belief or value that has sort of shaped how you live and lead and where did it come from?

 

Carol [00:29:21]:

Yeah, so I was just incredibly blessed. And my parents, my grandparents, they instilled in me a sense of confidence that I can do anything and be anything, and I believe them. I just. It was constant reinforcement. Constant reinforcement. We are a faith based family, and so heavily, heavily, heavily, heavily rely on our faith and believe to our, you know, our core, to whom much is given, much is expected. And so it’s, you know, from the time I was a kid, serving others was just how I lived, and it was a small community, and it was easy to serve others. Right. It was so easy to serve. And, you know, as a CEO, I’m like, I’m here to serve others. I mean, this is just how I was raised, but I was also blessed to be. Have raised on the land. So I can hunt a and fish and so. And cook. I can live off the land. And the reason why this matters is that throughout my career now, some 40 odd years, you know, I’ve had. I’ve had challenges. We all have, right? And I’m like, well, what’s the worst that’s gonna happen? I’m like, well, you could get fired. And I’m like, okay, I can live off the land. I never worried about it. I never, ever, ever worried about it. I just don’t.

 

Darren [00:30:27]:

I’m hearing massive self confidence, a gift that was given by your family, and I share that. It’s an extraordinary gift for anybody out there that are parents or thinking about becoming a parent. That is an incredible gift to give somebody. Self sufficiency and generosity in serving others. I mean, those three things, like everything you’ve shared in the last half hour, makes sense in light of that set of formative experiences and upbringing and set of values. It’s really, really interesting. Was there anything that didn’t serve you where you had to recognize, maybe even become aware of for the first time and not shed, but mature or round the edges or lessen the prominence of.

 

Carol [00:31:11]:

Well, I’m super passionate, and passion is wonderful because it can be inspirational. It can be also overused, particularly if it turns into anger. And I would get angry about things, deals that didn’t get done, or whatever it may be, I would get angry. And luckily, this early in my career, I had a boss point that out to me. He said, this will derail you. I wasn’t self aware. He said, this will derail you. He’s got a. You got to channel it in a positive way. I was just like, thank you again. Feedback is a gift. Right. I’m like, another one. Yeah, another gift. And I’m like, all right, you know, all right, Carol, first of all, what is kind of kicking you off? What are those buttons that are being pushed that cause you to get like that? And so I’ve been really spending a lot of time daring, trying to be self aware. So if I notice that that’s happening every once in a while, just look and creep back, you know, I’ll just go take a walk.

 

Darren [00:32:13]:

Yeah. There’s very few decisions or conversations that have to happen and without taking a pause if needed. Right.

 

Carol [00:32:21]:

There’s very few. Now, I love passion, though. I do. I think that’s helpful. It can be very inspirational. Right. But it’s just got to be channeled in the right way.

 

Darren [00:32:30]:

Yeah. So we’re having this conversation, a really interesting time in the world. And whenever this conversation goes live, I’m sure that statement will be true. It’s not going to change the role of seeing and business in a time where the world is divided, where there are social and environmental issues, how do you think about what the appropriate role is? And I would say there are a big, wide variation of opinions here, and appropriately so, some where people are like, business has nothing to do, and a CEO should stay out of politics. And social issues and others that are. It’s a deep part of how they lead and the platform that they leverage as a company. Where do you stand on that?

 

Carol [00:33:14]:

Well, because of our skill and breadth and serving the world, I’m very thoughtful about positions that we might take, but let my values drive. So when I was named the incoming CEO in March of 20, but I took the seat on June 1, the weekend after George Floyd was killed, and I had filmed a video that was to go out to upsers around the world, which was, you know, high powered, high energy. We’re going to kick ass and have some fun. And I’m like, you know, I can’t run that video. I got to tell people how I feel about this. So I wrote a letter, and I ran the letter first about how I felt and that there was no place for hate in the world and that I wanted ups to be a safe place. So I ran that first, and then we did the video second. So that was a values based decision. Shortly thereafter, we had an issue in Georgia with a change in a voter law that became very, very controversial. And we had many people taking positions. And I’m like, okay, what are we going to do about this? And what we did with that matter is we came out with a statement that said, said, we are not red, we are not blue, we are brown, and we will do everything in our power to enable our people the ability to vote and make it easier to vote. And we will provide volunteer hours for, you know, get out to the registration and voting tables, so on and so forth that we would really move in that way rather than to take a position. And that’s what we’ve tried to really do is rather than take a position to drive action. And the action, the desired outcome of the action is change without taking a position, because you can imagine. Imagine our customer base.

 

Darren [00:35:12]:

Yeah.

 

Carol [00:35:15]:

And thus far, we’ve been able to manage through all of that pretty well. It’s been, you know, it’s been such an experience. For example, I was prepared for a lot of things. I wasn’t prepared for war. So when Russia invaded Ukraine, I’m like, oh, my gosh, what are we going to do? We had a business in Russia. We had a business in Ukraine. We had a business in Belarus. We’re like, okay, we’re going to have to try to keep our people safe. So that was job number one, is to keep our people safe. And we had former KGB agents working for us that we had to keep safe from the Russians who were going after those employees. And so we kept them safe, but we had to shut down that entire business. We had to shut down the entire business. And when Hamas invaded Israel, we’re like, okay, what are we going to do? We got to keep our people safe. But we knew that we couldn’t fly our own aircraft into Israel any longer because we would be subject to attacks. So we arranged for charters to fly into Israel. So you have to be super thoughtful in how you just what matters. And, you know, safety of our people, of course, and then keeping commerce moving, because people need food, they need essential goods. So how can you keep commerce moving without getting yourself into a sticky situation?

 

Darren [00:36:23]:

It’s complicated, Barry, and I’m sure this managing of opposites helps in these situations. I’m also just struck by, we’re not red, we’re not blue, we’re brown is just terrific. Not because it sounds great, but because I think it does capture the kind of values and approach that I hear in this conversation. And I know that you lead with. Relatedly, there’s also the bigger issue of capitalism in this country. Milton Friedman wrote a very influential paper in the early seventies, and he said the only thing that a corporation exists to produce or serve is shareholder value. And that was conventional wisdom for many, many years and in many, many industries and many, many companies, that is still the guiding light. I heard you say something earlier in this conversation about multiple stakeholders, and there’s been an emergence of something people are calling multi stakeholder capitalism, that we actually have many stakeholders, not just shareholders, that we need to attend to. And here we go again. Natural, healthy tensions. How do you manage that? Where are you on that, and what is your view about the best way to integrate the multiple stakeholders and constituencies that you have to serve?

 

Carol [00:37:32]:

So again, we’re not CEO’s companies. We’re CEO’s of community. And you have to understand that. And it requires a lot of thought and introspection, but to give you a couple of examples of that. So last year was a very difficult year for us. We employ more teamsters than anybody on the planet. Every five years, the contract comes up for renewal. And it was a very difficult renewal, principally because it was loud and it was late. And so many of our customers were worried about a potential work stoppage, so they diverted their volume to other players. So we saw our revenue starting to fall. There was also a contraction in the market coming off of COVID and business outside the United States was very soft. So our business is contracting. Revenues dropped by $9 billion, profit dropped by $4 billion. So the company was smaller than it was. And of course the stock price sold off. We’re not the same company. We were a smaller company, so the stock price sold off. So I’m like, all right, I’ve got to make a decision about our structure. We’re not the same size. We’re smaller than we were. By the way, we did negotiate a new contract with the teamsters. And while the compounded annual growth rate of the cost of the contract is just over 3% over the five year period, we took a whole lot of costs in the first year. So we loaded up the costs in the first year. Revenues are down. Not pretty. I’m like, all right, I got to think through this. I got to think through. I got to right size the company for the size of our company. We got too many managers for the size of our companies. I got to think through how I’m going to try to productivity for the shareowners. I got to think about our customers and how we build back trust with our customers to get the volume to come back in. And what is that going to take? So it’s like a Rubik’s cube, right? You’re just working and working that cube until you get the colors lined the way you want. And with every decision is to think about the unintended consequence and to make sure you understand that. So we did downsize. So we went through something we called fit to serve, and we did a downsizing of our management structure. It was extraordinarily painful. Extraordinarily painful. But we handled it with grace and with generosity, and we’re okay as a result because the way I think that we handled it, but the consequence of that was that my likelihood to recommend declined. Right. That was a consequence of that decision. I’m like, I had to do it because we had. We were smaller as a company. People would have been, like, idling. There wasn’t work for them to do, so we had to do it. But there was a consequence that our likelihood to recommend decline. So I’m like, all right, understand it. You can look through the rear view mirror here, or you can look through the windshield as to where we’re going and you think about where we’re going. The future of our company is very bright, so let’s look through the windshield and not through the rearview mirror.

 

Darren [00:40:28]:

Yeah. I think the great CEO’s are ones that, because you have a public, very public scorecard called a stock price, the best CEO’s are ones that recognize that but don’t lead from that place. They make the courageous decisions that may have some short term pain, and they think very long term focus. Has that been your style of leadership?

 

Carol [00:40:49]:

For sure. When I got here, I said, we’ll double the market cap. And we did. Said we’d do it in three years. We did it in two, and then we lost it. It came back down. Now we haven’t gone all the way back to where when I started, but it’s come back down because of the dynamics that I just shared with you. I am not obsessing over that because if I obsessed over that, I forget everything else that matters. And what matters is something that one of the founders of Home Depot said, and he’s right. He said, if you take care of the people, they’ll take care of the customers, and everything else will take care of itself, including the stock price. So I’m like, focus on that customer experience. Focus on our people necessary to deliver that customer experience, and that stock is going to take care of itself.

 

Darren [00:41:29]:

Yeah. I am sure you’re a role model for many people, leaders, people that are thinking to be CEO. Otherwise, I’m curious who your role models are. And if you had to point to one leader in particular. Deceased, still living, still active, non active, doesn’t matter in any domain, government, politics, business, is there anyone that you would point to and say, this is the person I most admire? And then I’m curious why.

 

Carol [00:41:57]:

It’s really a hard question to answer because I’ve got an amazing personal board of directors, people that I greatly admire. My board chair, Bill Johnson, who’s the former CEO and chair of Hines, is just an amazing leader and has been the perfect chair because he has given me coaching and counseling and advice and support. But it stayed out of my way and that I just couldn’t ask for anything more. So I greatly admire Bill. But I have to say, if I had to pick one person, I can’t pick one person because I love Frank Blake, but I love Arthur Blank. I can’t pick one. I just can’t. What I admire about these people who have had, and Faye Wilson, oh, my gosh, she’s deceased. She was a board member when I joined Home Depot, who was so instrumental in terms of my onboarding there because, you know, I was from the outside coming into Home Depot, and she was great. You know, the first time I met her, I walked into her office and it was perfectly pristine. There was nothing there except for a book on her table. So I walked over to look at the title of the book, the Art of War. It was fantastic. You know, it was just exactly what I needed at that time. So I have had my. I am, you know, I gotta. I’ll date myself. I gotta roll it. Cause I got a whole contact list of amazing people who had such an impact on my life.

 

Darren [00:43:25]:

Well, you’ve been very blessed. When you have trouble choosing, you’ve been very blessed, and you’re a product of all of that. And it shows. You mentioned books. Are you a reader?

 

Carol [00:43:35]:

I am.

 

Darren [00:43:36]:

Is there a particular book? It doesn’t have to be a leadership book, but as you think about your role as a leader that you said, like, this is one that really shaped some part of my leadership philosophy. And what is that?

 

Carol [00:43:50]:

Yeah. So I’ll go to the New Testament of the Bible.

 

Darren [00:43:54]:

And what in particular about that has shaped you?

 

Carol [00:43:57]:

Servant leadership.

 

Darren [00:43:59]:

Yeah. Wonderful. What else would you like our listeners to know about you that we haven’t talked about?

 

Carol [00:44:05]:

Well, I think I’ll go back to my anniversary that I just celebrated. The most important decision one will make, I believe, is the decision with whom they’re going to spend the rest of their life. And, you know, I am so incredibly fortunate to have a wonderful husband, incredible support, and best friend and good counselor. And I just say, be thoughtful about who you pick as your partner. My parents are divorced. I have a sister who’s divorced. I have a brother who’s divorced. You know, you don’t have to be married or in a relationship. I’m just like, be thoughtful about who you pick. Cause it can really make a difference in your life.

 

Darren [00:44:45]:

Yeah. I would say, from my own experience, the most important relationship, for sure. And at times, as we grow up and mature, perhaps the most challenging, without a doubt. And so, what has been your secret to success, other than making a good choice? You’ve done something right, the two of you. What. What would you share?

 

Carol [00:45:04]:

So, I’m a big believer in balancing in the moment, and I think that life is a series of moments. And so right now, Darren, all I’m thinking about is the conversation with you. That’s all I’m thinking about. When we are done, I’m not thinking about you anymore. I’m moving on. Sorry, but I’m moving on to the next moment. And for Ramona and I, you know, I travel all the time. You know, he’s crazy busy. When we are together, we are balanced in that moment. And when our phones aren’t up, our iPads aren’t up, our tv’s not on, we are in the moment. And we happen to have a lot of common interests and shared interests. So on our anniversary morning, we went out for a wonderful walk in a forest, you know, so that was just a moment with the two of us in a forest contemplation. So I just think that’s helpful, actually. And when things do get tough, and they will for any relationship, you know, call on your friends and family to help out, too.

 

Darren [00:46:05]:

I’m really listening to what you’re saying right now because I aspire to that, and I’m not quite as far along in that as I’d like. And I just hope that everybody else is as well. Has that been always a natural thing for you to drop everything and be totally present? Or is it something you’ve had to work on and build a discipline around?

 

Carol [00:46:22]:

So I’ve been doing this for a long time because I realized that if I didn’t balance in the moment, I would be out of balance. I have a crazy, busy life, and I feel very. I am balanced. You know, I wake up, I’m happy, I’m balanced, and, you know, the stress is like, pouring like, rivers on top of me right now. And I’m like, okay. You know, because I just. I’m in the moment.

 

Darren [00:46:50]:

I’m so glad we’ve gone here. I just spent a couple more minutes on it. Because part of the work that I do with CEO’s is. Yes? About how do you become a better leader and build an enduring company at scale. But the bigger question, I think, is how do you do it? And how do you control and shape your experience such that your experience of it is joyful, peaceful. Peaceful. Fun.

 

Carol [00:47:12]:

Fun.

 

Darren [00:47:13]:

And what I’m hearing you say is that is available, and it’s available to everyone. And it’s the only thing, actually, that we have full control over.

 

Carol [00:47:21]:

The only thing. Yeah, yeah, the only thing. And so that means, you know, it just only takes a moment. But the moment that bring you joy, whatever it may be. Whatever that may be. Right. I start every day with things that bring me real joy. So it starts with prayer, but after that. But I’m really into word puzzles, so I do, you know, the New York Times mini wordle, the letterbox and the queen bee, so the spelling bee. And I have to get it all done in 30 minutes. And the new one strands, so I have to get it all done in 30 minutes. So I can’t do it. But that just brings me, like, joy. And then when I’m in my car, some people would be on conference calls, but no, no, no, I have to listen to murder mysteries. And then I’m like, ready for the day because these bring me joy. So I can walk in and I’m ready.

 

Darren [00:48:12]:

Hey, Carol, you are the CEO of Ups. We talked about scale and everything you’ve got in front of you and how successful you’ve been, and yet you’re able to do that. And I think that’s such an important lesson for people. We all live complex lives. We all have complex jobs. Yours is at a level that I can’t even comprehend. And I think one of the real takeaways, at least for me in this conversation, is, number one, the importance of starting a day. Well, I do that, I say, thank God I’m alive. This is going to be an extraordinary day. That’s the first thing that comes out of my mouth. And there are three things I’m grateful for. And the first person I’m grateful for is always me. And that’s how I start every single day. But what you’ve added is a practice of immersing yourself in joyous, where you have every reason to look at your phone, to answer emails, to be on conference calls, and contributing to the balance that you have that allows you to lead so effectively. Just truly remarkable.

 

Carol [00:49:07]:

Well, I think I learned that from my mom, but I’m really grateful that I have that now. Yeah.

 

Darren [00:49:13]:

Well, thank you for that lesson. Thank you for this amazing, amazing conversation. Thank you for your leadership, your contributions to not only the company you lead, but to making the world a better place. I think it’s very evident that you and the rest of your upsers are doing really wonderful things in the world. So thank you.

 

Carol [00:49:33]:

Well, it was my pleasure. Thank you.

 

Darren [00:49:40]:

That was really special. I so appreciated Carol’s emphasis on finding balance and joy. As a CEO, I trust that you found that as unique and inspiring as I did. I look forward to being with you on the next episode of one of one. And until then, I hope you live and lead with courage, wisdom, and above all, with love.

 

One of One is produced by Erica Gerard and Podkit Productions. Music by John LaSala.